Culture, Power, Politics » Podcast
A podcast about politics, contemporary culture, and the ideas that help us understand them. It began as recordings of a regular seminar on radical theory, culture, and politics, and still features seminar recordings from in-person and online sessions. Many episodes are now recorded specifically for the podcast. The show is hosted by Jeremy Gilbert, Professor of Cultural and Political Theory at the University of East London.
Episodes
Angela McRobbie: Feminism, Culture, Politics (part 2)
Part 2 of our interview with pioneer of feminist cultural studies, Angela McRobbie
For notes, info and to support us: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/08/07/angela-mcrobbie-feminism-culture-politics-part-2/
Angela McRobbie: Feminism, Culture, Politics (part 1)
An interview with pioneer of feminist cultural studies, Angela McRobbie.
For notes, info and to give us support: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/08/07/angela-mcrobbie-feminism-culture-politics-part-1/
Emergency Podcast: Burnham Begins
Alan Finlayson and Jeremy Gilbert discuss the beginning of the Andy Burnham premiership.
Universities in Crisis (part 3)
Do the universities have a future (and why does the tech sector hate them?)?
For info, link and to support us: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/07/16/universities-in-crisis-part-1/
Universities in Crisis (part 2)
How have universities changed in the eras of Fordism, post-Fordism and Platform Capitalism? How has the intersection of this history with the politics of neoliberalism and financialisation brought the entire sector to the brink of catastrophe?
For info, links and to support us: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/07/16/universities-in-crisis-part-2/
Universities in Crisis (part 1)
How did UK universities reach their current catastrophic condition?
For info, link and to support us: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/07/16/universities-in-crisis-part-1/
The Battle for Britain with John Clarke (part 4)
The fourth and final seminar on John Clarke's book The Battle for Britain
For info, links, and to support us, go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/07/14/the-battle-for-britain-with-john-clarke-part-4/
Emergency Podcast: The Rhetoric of Burnhamism
We discuss Andy Burnham's speech launching his formal bid for the Labour leadership.
For info, errata and to give us support (Please give us support!):
https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/07/03/emergency-podcast-the-rhetoric-of-burnhamism/
The Battle for Britain with John Clarke (part 3)
John Clarke and Anamik Saha discuss the politics of Brexit, racism and authoritarianism UK 2020-22
For info, links and to give us support: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/06/30/the-battle-for-britain-with-john-clarke-part-3/
The Battle For Britain with John Clarke (Part 2)
The second of four episodes with John Clarke, discussing his book The Battle for Britain.
For info and to support us: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/?p=2561
Emergency Podcast: History Made in Makerfield
As we predicted, Burnham won the by-election and it wasn't even close.
For info and to support us: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/?p=2550
The End of the World as We Know It: Catastrophe Culture
What role do images of total catastrophe play in our culture and politics?
For notes, info and to support us, please go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/06/16/the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-catastrophe-culture/
Emergency Podcast June 12th 2026
For information and to support us: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/06/12/emergency-podcast-june-12th-2026/
The Battle For Britain with John Clarke (Part 1)
What were the historical, political, cultural conditions for Brexit? Jeremy discusses the first two sections of The Battle For Britain: Crises, Conflicts and the Conjuncture with author John Clarke.
For info, notes and to give us support go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/06/07/the-battle-for-britain-with-john-clarke-part-1/
Black Theory in Britain
In this episode Jem is joined by Dhanveer Singh Brar and Ashwani Sharma to discuss their 2019 article ‘What is This 'Black 'in Black Studies? From Black British Cultural Studies to Black Critical Thought in UK Arts and Higher Education’.
We actually recorded this in March 2026
We talk about the history of academic and non-academic responses to the experience of racism and radicalisation in Brit
Stuart Hall: Class, Race and Conjuncture (part 2)
Jem completes his narrative account of Stuart Hall’s career.
For information, links, notes, errata and to give us support go to:
https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/05/31/stuart-hall-class-race-and-conjuncture-part-2/
Stuart Hall: Class, Race and Conjuncture (part 1)
An introduction to the career and ideas of British cultural theorist, political activist and pubilc intellectual, Stuart Hall. This episode covers the period 1960-85.
For information and to give us support go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/05/29/stuart-hall-part-1/
Answers to Questions May 2026
In this episode, Alan and Jeremy answer questions posed by listeners during the live recording of the previous one.
For information and to give us support go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/05/15/answers-to-questions-may-2026/
Emergency Podcast Live! May 2026
In this episode, Alan Finlayson and Jeremy Gilbert discuss the crisis in the Labour Party following the cataclysmic local and devolved election results of the previous week. The Greens and Reform UK are destroying Labour’s voter base from left and right respectively, nationalist parties are cleaning up in Scotland and Wales, and it looks like Andy Burnham may […]
Religion and Politics Part 3
Concluding our discussion of religion in politics.
For information and to give us support, go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/05/08/religion-and-politics-part-3/
Religion and Politics Part 2
Continuing our discussion of religion in politics.
For information and to give us support, go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/05/08/religion-and-politics-part-2/
Religion and Politics Part 1
Exploring f the relationship between religion and politics.
For information and to give us support, go to: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/2026/05/08/religion-and-politics-part-1/
Political Update: Mandelson, Starmer, Tenants’ Rights
In this episode, Jem and Alan discuss a range of current issues in UK politics: the continued fallout over Peter Mandelson’s appointment as ambassador to the US, the build up to possibly the most consequential set of local and devolved elections in living memory, the continued speculation over the political fate of Prime Minister Keir […]
The Politics of Feeling
This is a recording of an online seminar about the book The Politics of Feeling: Populism, Progressivism, Liberalism by Ben Anderson and Anna Seccor. With the authors, Carolyn Pedwell, Will Davies and Jeremy Gilbert For more information about Culture, Power, Politics see culturepowerpolitics.org If you can support us with a small regular donation, please do […]
Vibes Theory, Structures of Feeling, Stranger Things
In this episode Jem comes back to the question of how to think about ‘vibes’ in politics, discussing how they relate to the question of material interests and whether vibes can be rational. We look at a few different thinkers who have tried to define ‘vibes’, we go back to Raymond Williams’s concept of the […]
Multitude in Spinoza and Marxism with Michael Hardt
In this recording of an online seminar, Michael Hardt discusses the significance of the concept of ‘multitude’ for radical philosophy, from Spinoza, to Marx, to Michael’s own writing with Antonio Negri. NB: The podcast immediately before this one in your feed should be ‘Multitudes in the Age of Brexit: on Hardt & Negri’. That episode […]
Multitudes in the Age of Brexit: on Hardt & Negri
In this episode, Jem offers an introduction to the work and ideas of Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri. Who are they? Where did their ideas come from? Why were they so widely read at the turn of the twenty-first century? How does their idea of the democratic ‘multitude’ confronting the ‘Empire’ of international institutions help […]
Greens Win Gorton
Alan and Jem discuss the implication of the Green Party’s historic win in last week’s Gorton and Denton by-election. We cover the meaning of Manchester, making Britain normal and the ordinary charisma of new Green MP Hannah Spencer. Finally we ask – what are the strategic implications for the Labour left and the broader, multi-party […]
Spinoza in Post-Marxist Philosophy with Katja Diefenbach
This is a recording of an online seminar with philosopher Katja Diefenbach . It forms part of our ongoing series, From Marx to Spinoza: Affect, Ideology, Materiality. This is a more specialist seminar than much of what you will find in this podcast feed, so check out some of the introductory sessions in that series […]
Reactionary Feminisms with Jilly Kay part 2
In this episode, Jeremy is joined by Dr. Jilly Kay of Loughborough University to discuss her fascinating and crucial research into new forms of reactionary feminism. Why do Catholic traditionalists and pessimistic dating-influencers all now want to call themselves ‘feminist’?  This is part 2 of 2: the start of the conversation is the previous episode in the fee
Reactionary Feminisms with Jilly Kay part 1
In this episode, Jeremy is joined by Dr. Jilly Kay of Loughborough University to discuss her fascinating and crucial research into new forms of reactionary feminism. Why do Catholic traditionalists and pessimistic dating-influencers all now want to call themselves ‘feminist’?  This is part 1 of 2: the rest of the conversation is the next episode in the feed.
The Meaning of Peter Mandelson
Jem and Alan get deep into the historical significance of Peter Mandelson, his career and his recent fall. What has the Epstein case revealed about the ideology of our ruling elites? Why did Mandelson achieve the complicated status that he did, and was his reputation ever deserved? Why did Starmer and his advisors cling to […]
Why was Burnham Blocked? (Emergency Pod January 2026)
In this actual emergency podcast, Alan and Jem give way to overwhelming public pressure to respond to a recent decision taken by Labour’s National Executive Committee. The NEC have voted to block popular Mayor of Manchester (and former cabinet minister and MP) Andy Burnham from even having a chance of being selected by the local party to […]
Nationalism and the Future of Britain
In this episode, Alan and Jem go deep and long on the concept of nationalism and its implications for UK politics, at a time when nationalist parties are making significant gains across the country. Where do ideas of nation and nationalism come from? Is the break-up of Britain inevitable or desirable? Is England an incorrigibly […]
Good Vibes: One Battle, Zohran, Affect, Immediacy
Why was One Battle After Another the biggest film of 2025? What does it have to do with Zohran and Trump? How can Anna Kornbluh’s concept of ‘immediacy’, Raymond Williams’ idea ‘structures of feeling’ and Lawrence Grossberg’s analysis of Trump’s chaotic politics help us understand these signs of our times? Jem tackles all this single-handed, […
Pre-revolutionary Britain? (Emergency Pod December 2025)
Alan Finlayson is back to discuss with Jem the key developments in UK politics since the last time they talked about it. Covering the Labour deputy leadership, the politics of the Budget and of immigration, the origins of Britain’s bargain-hunting austerity mindset, Starmer on Tik-Tok, the Green Party surge, whether Blue Labour actually exists, whether […]
The Factional Politics of the Labour Party
This is actually an episode of the Compass podcast, ‘It’s Bloody Complicated’, that featured me (Jeremy Gilbert) and Alan Finlayson being interviewed by Compass director, Neal Lawson. I’ve recorded a ten-minute introduction explaining who and what Compass is. Most of the recording is an excellent discussion of the history of factionalism in the Labour Party, […]
From Superstition to Mythocracy with Yves Citton
In this seminar we will talk with Yves Citton about his books Mythocracy: How Stories Shape Our World, Mediarchy, and Spinoza et les Social Sciences: De la Puissance de la multitude à l’économie des affects (co-edited with Frédéric Lordon), and about the myths that dominate contemporary thought, how they are disseminated, and how and understanding of the intersection […]
The Starmer Disaster
A recording of our online seminar with Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Mark Perryman, Alan Finlayson and Jeremy Gilbert, recorded October 8th 2025 We ask: How has it all gone so wrong for a government elected with one of the largest peacetime majorities on record?  How have we got here?  Do Starmer and his political allies even want […]
Errata
So, yeah, a listener pointed out that Jem had got some details about Andy Burnham’s career wrong, and he thought it was best to set the record straight, as well as follow up on a couple of other questions left open by the September 2025 Emergency Podcast. So here we are!
Emergency Podcast September 2025
Rayner resigned! Mandelson sacked! ‘Mainstream’ launched! Your Party Chaos! Fascists on the Streets! Alan Finlayson and Jeremy Gilbert bring you all the analysis they can fit into two hours of this truly momentous couple of weeks in UK politics… For more information about Culture, Power and Politics see https://culturepowerpolitics.org To book free tickets for ‘The Sta
What Adam Curtis Won’t Tell You
In this episode, Jem offers a critical response to Adam Curtis’ oeuvre: an extraordinary series of fascinating, yet never-fully-satisfying, films about culture, power and politics in the epoch of advanced capitalism. This is something that friends of the show have been requesting for years, so here it finally is! For more information about Culture, Power […]
Emergency Podcast July 2025
Professor Alan Finlayson is back to discuss the latest developments in UK politics: the suspension of several Labour MPs and the announcement of a new left party to be led by Zarah Sultana and Jeremy Corbyn (maybe). We also discuss the vexed questions of why Starmer’s government is so unpopular after its first year in […]
What is ‘Blue Labour’
‘Blue Labour’, an explicitly conservative tendency within the politics of the UK’s Labour Party, is said to be one of the few intellectual influences on the government of Keir Starmer.So in this episode, Jeremy is joined by Alex Worrad-Andrews to answer the question on everyone’s lips: what is ‘Blue Labour’? We discuss the history of the term […]
What’s Feudal About ‘Technofeudalism’? With Eleanor Janega
Jem is joined by medieval historian, comrade and friend of the show Eleanor Janega, to talk about what exactly is ‘feudal’ about ‘techno-feudalism’ or ‘neo-feudalism’. Several prominent theorists and commentators have recently claimed that somehow, we’ve left the age of capitalism behind and entered a new epoch of…some kind of ‘feudalism’
Is Capitalism Over? The ‘Technofeudalism’ Debate
Are we entering the world of ‘Techno-feudalism’, or ‘Neofeudalism’? Or are there better ways to understand our present situation, such as the concept of ‘Platform Capitalism’ ? In this episode Jeremy Gilbert, discusses these issues and lays out what’s at stake in defining terms like ‘capitalism’ ‘technofeudalism’ and ‘mode of
The Crisis of Liberalism (and the 2025 UK local elections)
Alan Finlayson returns for an in-depth discussion of the crisis of liberalism as an effective and legitimate philosophy of government, as exemplified by the success of the right-wing populist Reform party at the May 2025 UK local elections. If you can support us with a small regular donation, please do so here. If you’d like to […]
The Personality of Power: A Theory of Fascism with Brian Massumi
In this seminar, Brian Massumi discusses his new book, The Personality of Power: A Theory of Fascism for Anti-fascist Life. Brian is one of the major figures of Anglophone continental philosophy in our age and a key figure in the dissemination of the work of Deleuze & Guattari. This is part of our series From Marx […]
Regimes of Violence with John Protevi
In a just world, John Protevi would be far more famous than Slavoj Zizek. An expert on the ideas of Deleuze & Guattari (among many other things), his work brings together continental philosophy, analytical philosophy, rigorous science and political radicalism. In this recording he talks about his new book Regimes of Violence, ranging over topics […]
Has Musk Won? Reactionary Digital Politics
In this episode, Alan Finlayson joins Jeremy for a 3-hour discussion of the genesis, reality and possible futures of the online right. We cover the history of reactionary digital politics, the changing shape of our knowledge culture, the politics of the platform economy, and possible strategies for progressive forces. We also get into an argument […]
The Australian Deleuze, Materialist Feminisms, Affect in the Anthropocene
This is a recording of the latest in our ongoing series of seminars, From Marx to Spinoza: Affect, Ideology, Materiality.With very special guest, Claire Colebrook, author of many books including Death of the Posthuman: Essays on Extinction If you can support us with a small regular donation, please do so here. If you’d like to make a one-time […]
From Marx to Spinoza Q&A session
This is a recording of the most recent seminar in our From Marx to Spinoza series. This was a fantastic discussion; it was mostly one for the folks who are deeply involved in the series, but if you are just casually interested in what we make of the ‘New Materialism’, then it’s certainly worth a […]
US Election, UK Budget, New Tory Leader
In the latest emergency podcast, Alan Finlayson talks to Jeremy about the political implications of the recent UK budget, the re-election of Donald Trump, and the Conservative Party becoming the first major British political party to elect a Black woman as Leader. For more information about the podcast and project see culturepowerpolitics.org If you can […]
The Searchers with Andy Beckett
Andy Beckett discusses his new book about 5 key figures of the British Labour left: Tony Benn, Diane Abbot, Jeremy Corbyn, Ken Livingstone and John McDonnell. The Searchers: Five Rebels, Their Dream of a Different Britain, and Their Many Enemies was published earlier this year by Allen Lane. Andy and Jem go deep into some […]
Spinoza and Ideology Critique with Warren Montag
This was the latest seminar in our ongoing sub-series: From Marx to Spinoza: Affect, Ideology, Materiality. The series is organised by Andrew Goffey, Jason Read and Jeremy Gilbert. In this session we were honoured to be joined by one of the greatest Anglophone scholars of Spinozist Marxism: Warren Montag. This was a fantastically lucid and […]
UK General Election 2024 – The Results
In the latest emergency podcast, Jeremy and Alan Finlayson dissect the historic results of the 2024 UK general election. For more information about the podcast and project see culturepowerpolitics.org If you can support us with a small regular donation, please do so here. If you’d like to make a one-time donation, please do so here.
Spinoza and Marx on Work
This is the recording of the latest seminar in our series ‘From Marx to Spinoza: Affect, Ideology, Materiality‘ This time, our own Jason Read discusses his recent book The Double Shift: Spinoza and Marx on the Politics of Work. If you want a more basic introduction to the book then here’s a video, and if […]
UK General Election, Mid-Campaign
This is the second of our ’emergency podcasts’ with Professor Alan Finlayson during the UK’s 2024 general election. Alan and Jem discuss the controversies of Labour’s de-selection of left-wing parliamentary candidates. the entry of Nigel Farage into the campaign, the politics of the party manifestos and the long-term crisis of the Conservative Party. Come for […]
UK General Election 2024
Jeremy is joined once again by Alan Finlayson for an emergency podcast. We discuss the political situation in the UK, at the start of a general election campaign that nobody thought would be happening exactly now. For more information about Culture, Power and Politics see here.  If you can support us with a small regular donation, […]
The Affective Turn
In this session, we look at the so-called ‘affective turn’ in the humanities and social sciences since the late 1990s. We consider the multiple forms which this ‘turn’ to affect has taken, in both political terms (from libertarian accelerationists to radical communists) and disciplinary ( from film theory to geography), asking how Spinozan it all […]
When Marx Met Spinoza with Tracie Matysik
In this session we were joined by Tracie Matysik to discuss the very idea of a Spinozan philosophy beyond the writings of Baruch Spinoza himself, and particular in the work of Marx. To what extent is there a consistent  tradition of materialist monism that can be traced back to Spinoza and necessarily or possibly informs historical materialism? […]
Introducing Affect
What is ‘affect’, why does it matter, and why did people working in the humanities and social sciences start talking about it so much from the 1990s onwards? This is a quick introduction to this topic, which was recorded in a hurry to make up for the fact that our big seminar on ‘the affective […]
Spinozist Marxism? With Etienne Balibar
In this session, we’re joined by none other than Etienne Balibar to discuss the history and present state of dialogue between Marxism and Spinozism. This is part of our series ‘From Marx to Spinoza’. For more information see: https://culturepowerpolitics.org/from-marx-to-spinoza-affect-ideology-materiality/ If you can support us with a small regular donation, please do so here. If
Spinoza’s Philosophy
With Jason Read and Jeremy Gilbert.In this seminar we finally lay out and discuss the core topics from Spinoza’s major philosophical works, and discuss some of the issues involved with trying to read a 17th century Dutch philosopher who wrote in Latin when you’re a 21st-century Anglophone with a life of your own to live. […]
Music and Radicalism in the 1970s
With Matthew Worley and Jeremy Gilbert. This was a session of the event ‘The Radical 1970s’, held in London on December 9th 2023. The event was held to mark the publication of Michael Hardt’s book The Subversive Seventies. It was organised and hosted by Jeremy Gilbert and by Katy Petit of the Raphael Samuel History […]
Race, Radicalism and Resistance in the UK 1970s
With Sundari Anitha, Ruth Pearson and John Narayan. This was a session of the event ‘The Radical 1970s’, held in London on December 9th 2023. The event was held to mark the publication of Michael Hardt’s book The Subversive Seventies. It was organised and hosted by Jeremy Gilbert and by Katy Petit of the Raphael […]
Italy and the World in the 1970s
With Michael Hardt This was a session of the event ‘The Radical 1970s’, held in London on December 9th 2023. The event was held to mark the publication of Michael Hardt’s book The Subversive Seventies. It was organised and hosted by Jeremy Gilbert and by Katy Petit of the Raphael Samuel History Centre, London. This […]
Women’s Liberation in the 1970s
This was a session of the event ‘The Radical 1970s’, held in London on December 9th 2023. The event was held to mark the publication of Michael Hardt’s book The Subversive Seventies. It was organised and hosted by Jeremy Gilbert and by Katy Petit of the Raphael Samuel History Centre, London. This session featured Lynne […]
Why Would Radicals Read Spinoza?
How does Spinoza fit into the history of Western (and world) philosophy? To what is he relevant outside of academic philosophy? Why did he become a hero to a certain strand of Marxist / post-Marxist thinkers in the late 20th century? Why was he ignored by others? This was the second in our ongoing series […]
What is Marxism Anyway? (re-edit)
We slightly re-edited this recording after noticing a glitch in the episode that went out a couple of days ago. Sorry about that – just listen to this one instead! With Jason Read, Andrew Goffey and Jeremy Gilbert (with help from Charlie Clarke) What do we actually mean by ‘Marxism’? What is historical and what […]
Social Reproduction in Theory and Practice: Socialist Feminism and the Politics of Care
‘Social Reproduction’ has re-emerged as a central idea in left-feminist analyses of contemporary power relations and institutions. What light can it shed on our situation in the post-pandemic era and how does it relate to the politics of work, life and care? Speakers: Helen Hester, Professor of Media and Communication, University of West London. Author […]
Generational Politics and the Asset Economy
While mainstream commentators and far-right apologists insist that that the great political divide today is between different sets of cultural ‘values’, the fact is that nothing correlates with voting Tory as closely as being an outright homeowner with a secure pension. Is this coincidence, or is the social and generation divide between those with […]
Why is the Labour Leadership attacking the ‘soft left’?
Emergency Podcast! Once again Jeremy is joined by Professor Alan Finlayson at very short notice to discuss some stupid action taken by the Labour Party leadership. This week the party has threatened Neal Lawson, Director of Compass with expulsion from the party. Why has this attracted headlines and outrage, and what does it mean? Have […]
Empire, Nation and the British State
In this coronation year, we are visibly reminded that the trappings of the British state are overlaid with the legacies of its empire. But to what extent are current attitudes, legal frameworks and political arrangements really shaped by this imperialist and colonialist past? Did the very idea of a British ‘nation’ – a relatively novel […]
Is there a future for British conservatism?
The Conservative and Unionist Party of the United Kingdom has experienced a prolonged period of crisis and transformation, from pro-austerity technocrats under David Cameron to nationalist populists under Johnson. Current PM Rishi Sunak struggles to hold the different factions together amid the demographic and political fracturing of the UK. Can the Tory party reinvent itself […]
Veganism collective political movement or individualistic ethical consumerism?
Veganism (or, at least, consumption of “plant based” foods) has exploded in the last few years. But what is the relationship between veganism, the climate crisis and the politics of green social justice? Is veganism an inherently individualistic and moralistic form of political activity or a collective practice to resist the commodification of nonhuman animals […]
Ecosocialism and Degrowth
What are the philosophical and political coordinates of a contemporary eco-socialism? What are the political, economic, cultural and philosophical implications of current debates over ‘degrowth’ and its alternatives? Should we be looking for new forms of sustainable growth, new definitions of economic progress, or completely new ways of conceptualising the desirable future?  Speakers  Ri
Can Precarious Workers Be Organised?
The pandemic exposed the insecurity and vulnerability of workers – from delivery riders to poorly paid culture industry freelancers – who struggled to access the protections afforded to workers on standard employment contacts. Can unions organise these precarious workers to fight for better conditions, or are their working lives simply too fragmented and isolated for […]
The Left and the ecological crisis
The high point of Left electoral success represented by Corbynism, the Sanders campaign, Mélenchon and others seems to have passed. Meanwhile, the climate and broader ecological crises intensify and much of the mobilisation around these issues – from XR to the school climate strikes to Just Stop Oil – originates outside of the conventional Left. […]
The Meaning of the Monarchy
Recorded Live at the Ridley Road Market Bar, Dalston, London, on May 3rd 2023 WithAnthony Barnett, Founder of Charter 88 and open Democracy, author of many books including Taking Control: Humanity and America after Trump and the Pandemic and The Lure of Greatness: England’s Brexit and Trump’s America. Laura Clancy, Lecturer in Media, Lancaster University. Author of Running the Family Firm: how [&
