Messy Social Work
The Messy Social Work podcast, hosted by Richard Devine and Tim Fisher, explores the complexities and realities of social work practice. The hosts discuss relational activism and share insights from their experiences. The podcast aims to provide an honest and reflective look at the challenges and rewards of the profession.
Episodes
Rich and Tim speak to ex-undercover police officer and bestselling author Neil Woods about why the war on drugs is failing
In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better.Neil talks about what he witnesse
Rich and Tim speak to foster carer Gareth K Thomas: what every social worker should know about children in care, trauma‑informed parenting and supporting carers
In this episode, we sit down with foster carer Gareth K Thomas to explore his experiences of caring for children who have lived through trauma, and what it really means to offer trauma-informed care in practice.Gareth shares honest reflections on the realities of foster care - the rewards, the challenges, and the emotional impact of supporting children who have experienced adversity. We talk about
Rich and Tim get headlines form Mithran Samuel’s, and speak to social worker Ellen
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Rich and Tim speak to social worker Rose Byrne about her upbringing, caring for her sister and ADHD
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Rich and Tim speak to Maddy McCormack (Social Worker) on the realities of Child Protection Social Work
In this episode, we speak with Maddy McCormack, a social worker early in her career, about the realities of stepping into practice with children and families.Maddy reflects on her route into the role, what day-to-day social work actually looks like, and what she’s had to learn beyond training to be effective in her first year. We explore how she builds relationships with young people and their fam
Rich and Tim speak to Sharon Shoesmith about Baby P, blame and learning from tragedies
In this episode, we sit down with Sharon Shoesmith to revisit one of the most defining and contentious moments in modern child protection: the case of Baby P, and the national reaction that followed.Sharon reflects candidly on what it meant to become the focus of public anger—labelled, scrutinised, and ultimately removed from her role—despite leading a service that had been judged as “good” by Of
Rich and Tim introduce Systemic Ideas in Social Work with student Natasha Dube and author Liz Bosanquet
In this episode of the Messy Social Work podcast, we begin with a conversation with Natasha Dube, before Rich and Tim discuss Liz Bosanquet’s new book, Systemic Social Work Practice. The discussion explores how systemic ideas can move beyond theory and into everyday practice, helping practitioners think relationally about families, organisations and the wider systems shaping people’s lives. A conv
BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss time management (Part 2)
In this second bonus episode, Rich, Tim and Charlotte build directly on Part 1, turning their attention to the four remaining ideas from Rich’s blog on resilience in social work and exploring how these play out in practice.The conversation moves beyond individual productivity and into the ethical and emotional costs of working under sustained pressure. Drawing on Vikki Reynolds’ work, the episode
Rich and Tim discuss time management ideas that DEFINITELY & FINALLY allow you to get on top of your work
This episode explores time management as both a practical challenge and a lived experience in social work. Rich shares techniques such as Stephen Covey’s urgent and important quadrants, Cal Newport’s time blocking and the difference between deep and shallow work, while also being honest about how difficult these are to sustain in real practice. The conversation moves into presence, stress and prag
BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim discuss what Rich learned from 6 years of journaling (Part Two)
This bonus episode picks up where the previous conversation left off. Rich and Tim return to six years of journals to explore the next three themes that emerged — the ones that didn’t fit neatly, resolve cleanly, or offer easy lessons.They begin with work and purpose, tracing how Rich’s journals reveal a constant back‑and‑forth: ambition and exhaustion, pride and resentment, meaning and burnout. T
Rich and Tim discuss what Rich learned from 6 years of journaling
In this episode, Rich and Tim sit down with six years of personal journals and ask a simple but uncomfortable question: what actually changed?They focus on the first three themes that stood out when Rich reread everything back.First, Rich reflects on the long arc of his mental health — how early journal entries framed exhaustion, irritability and low mood as problems of discipline, productivity, o
Rich and Tim speak to Psychotherapist, Jamie Crabb on suffering, care, and staying with what we don’t yet understand.
In this episode of Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined by therapist and writer Jamie Crabb to explore his powerful article Care, and Being Seen in the Presence of the Enigmatic.Jamie reflects on what care really asks of us when things don’t make sense—when distress can’t be easily named, understood, or fixed. Drawing on his own experience of the care system, his therapeutic work, and psycho
Rich and Tim speak to Janet Kay OBE about her experiences as a social worker, adoptive parent and kinship carer
Janet Kay is a prominent kinship carer, trustee for the charity Kinship, and OBE recipient who advocates for families in England raising relatives' children. Based in Sheffield, she has cared for her grandson since he was 18 months old, advocating for better financial and practical support, and overcoming the "dump and run" lack of resources for caregivers. Key Aspects of Janet Kay&
Rich and Tim speak to Professor Jonathan Scourfield on what the largest-ever Family Group Conference study reveals
Professor Jonathan Scourfield is a leading UK academic in social work, currently based at Cardiff University. His work spans child welfare, social care inequalities, suicide and self‑harm research, and working with men across the life course This one https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6079816tests if participation quality (i.e., how well families said their voice was heard) was li
Rich and Tim speak to Juliette Davies about addiction, domestic abuse and her recovery journey
A few years ago, Rich carried out an assessment that concluded Juliette couldn’t safely care for her children. It was a difficult moment, shaped by years of substance misuse, trauma, and repeated involvement from services.That assessment recommended residential rehabilitation.Juliette went on to take that step.In this conversation, Rich and Tim speak with Juliette about what was happening in her l
Rich and Tim on practice lessons from the tragic death of Sara Shariff
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Rich and Tim speak to Ethan St Pierre about trauma tourism, alongside a news roundup from Mithran Samuel (CC)
Connect with Ethan here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethan-st-pierre-bb58403ab/Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Rich and Tim speak to Ethan St Pierre about growing up in care, addiction and being reborn in a cemetery
Connect with Ethan here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethan-st-pierre-bb58403ab/Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Rich and Tim talk to Mark Hopfenbeck about the transformative possibilities of Open Dialogue.
In this conversation, Rich and Tim and Mark Hopfenbeck explore the concept of Open Dialogue, its origins, and its application in mental health and social work. They discuss the importance of community involvement, the need for continuity in care, and the training required to develop relational skills. Mark emphasizes the significance of peer support and the challenges faced in implementing Open Di
Connecting Research: Why young people don't access mental health support
In this episode, we speak with Dr Mina Fazel, a British psychiatrist who is Professor and Chair of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Oxford. Her research considers the mental health of children and young people, and how to design effective mental health interventions.We talk to her about a recent paper: Adolescent consent and Generation Alpha: bri
BONUS Episode: Rich and Tim reflect on what its like to be silent for 6 days
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Rich and Tim talk to Seana McDermott (Social Worker for Children in Care) about relational practice, moral injury and making a difference
This week, we speak to Seana, a social worker in a Child in Care Team. We explore what her role involves, how she builds relationships with young people, carers, and families, and the challenges she faces—as well as what helps her keep going. We’re really grateful to Seana for taking the time to talk with us, especially given how busy the role is. We hope you enjoy her passion, child‑centred pract
Rich and Tim hear about handstands, breakdance battles, and the unconscious: Dr Anna Harvey on what shapes social work
In this two-part episode of Messy Social Work, hosts Richard Devine and Tim Fisher speak with Dr Anna Harvey about the realities of child protection practice, reflective supervision, and the emotional weight of decision-making. Using a selection of Anna’s vivid LinkedIn posts and readings as a jumping-off point, the conversation moves from psychoanalytic ideas like organisational mindlessness, fea
Rich and Tim speak to Dr Anna Harvey about fear loneliness and joy in social work
In this two-part episode of Messy Social Work, hosts Richard Devine and Tim Fisher speak with Dr Anna Harvey about the realities of child protection practice, reflective supervision, and the emotional weight of decision-making. Using a selection of Anna’s vivid LinkedIn posts and readings as a jumping-off point, the conversation moves from psychoanalytic ideas like organisational mindlessness, fea
Rich and Tim return to talk boundaries, creating space and big changes ahead
Rich and Tim are back in the studio of the Messy Social Work Podcast, shaking off the holiday cobwebs and diving straight into the age-old tradition of New Year’s resolutions. Tim’s on a mission to set some firm boundaries, while Rich is dreaming of carving out a little breathing space—because who doesn’t need that in social work?But that’s not all. We’ve got our roving news correspondent and Comm
Rich and Tim wrap up the year in conversation with Andrew Turnell
Rich and Tim are joined by Andrew Turnell to reflect on 2025.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/
Rich and Tim speak to Prof Donald Forrester about Nanny McPhee, baseball bats and the heart of social work (rights?!)
In this episode of The Messy Social Work Podcast, we sit down with Professor Donald Forrester, researcher and social worker. We talk about why he thinks social workers are a bit like Nanny McPhee, why social work isn’t really about “helping,” and why conflict sits at the heart of the work we do. Donald shares the stories behind some of his most memorable anecdotes—from the baseball bat incident t
Rich and Tim speak to Charlotte Clark (Child Protection Social Worker) about trust, power and relationships
Rich and Tim sit down with Charlotte Clark, a practising frontline child protection social worker, to explore what it means to build trust in contexts where distrust runs deep. From navigating statutory power dynamics to managing conflict under intense pressure, Charlotte shares insights from her early career journey, reporting from the frontline and reflects on the relational skills that matter m
Rich and Tim speak with Anam Raja to discuss the experiences of Black and Asian kinship carers
Full research and report found herehttps://kinship.org.uk/our-work-and-impact/research/raised-by-relatives/
Rich and Tim ask each other surprising & difficult questions
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich and Tim discuss the Trauma Industrial Complex
This week on Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim take a deep dive into Darren McGarvey’s The Trauma Industrial Complex — a book that pulls no punches about how society packages, sells, and performs trauma. We explore McGarvey’s core argument that trauma has become a kind of cultural currency, often stripped of nuance and turned into content. We talk about the emotional labour placed on lived-experienc
Connecting Research: linking childhood maltreatment to later intimate partner violence victimization
In this Connecting Research episode, we speak to a lecturer and researcher at University College London, Dr Patrizia Pezzoli, about an article she co-authored, titled: Lived-experience perspectives on the psychological factors linking childhood maltreatment to later intimate partner violence victimization. See paper here which is available OPEN ACCESS. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalac
Rich and Tim speak to Toni Mayo about Radical Social Work
In this episode, we have a returning guest: social worker and team manager Toni Mayo. Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine
Rich and Tim speak to Rhian Taylor on the tension between being and doing in social work
In this episode, we explore the tension between the fast-paced, task-driven nature of social work and the deeper need for presence, reflection, and meaning. Rhian Taylor shares insights from her recent blog on why it’s so hard for practitioners to stop—and how doing so can radically improve our wellbeing and the quality of our practice.We talk about:The systemic pressures that reward constant “doi
Rich and Tim speak to Nicki Pettitt, Consultant specialising in Child Safeguarding Practice Reviews
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Context Counts: Improving the analysis of socio-economic context and intersectionality in Local Child Safeguarding Practice Reviews: https://www.techne.ac.uk/research-and-education/departments-and-schools/law-and-criminology/research/our-projects-and-research-impact/context-counts-improving-the-analysis-of-socio-economic-context-and-intersect
Rich and Tim probe Community Care Editor, Mithran for the latest social work headlines-from foster care shortages to the future of kinship
Josh MacAlister has said he’d like children to have a choice of where and with whom they live:https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/10/02/children-in-care-should-have-choice-of-where-and-with-whom-they-live-says-macalister/ Applications to register children’s homes are rocketing, such that Ofsted is having to prioritise applications, leaving others having to wait up to 18 months.https://www.communi
Rich and Tim speak to Dr Paul Shuttleworth on what children want you to know about kinship
In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim speak with Dr Paul Shuttleworth about his new book Listening to Children about Kinship Care: Child Welfare and Permanence. Drawing on powerful research and direct testimony from children and young people, Paul shares what they say really matters when professionals make decisions about kinship care, permanence, and support.We explore:Wh
Rich and Tim speak to Dr Lorna Stabler about lived experience—its power, its promise, and its problems.
In this episode, we explore why lived experience has become such a dominant force in social work, and ask: what are we missing when we treat it as unquestionable truth? Dr Stabler helps us think critically about how stories are used, who gets to tell them, and what happens when experience becomes currency. This is a conversation about ethics, representation, and the uncomfortable edges of practic
Rich and Tim reflect on their personal failures, explore why failure is inevitable, & share what they’ve learned from it.
In this episode, Rich and Tim: How to Succeed at Failing, we reflect on the times we’ve got it wrong — professionally and personally — and explore why failure isn’t just inevitable, but essential. From missteps to lessons learned, we talk about how embracing failure can lead to growth, insight, and even unexpected success.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Chi
Rich and Tim interview Prof Rick Barth on the top misconceptions in child protection
In this thoughtful and research-informed conversation, Rich and Tim speak with Professor Rick Barth about his influential article, “Ten Common Child Welfare Misconceptions.” The episode explores how widely held beliefs about child protection and foster care often diverge from evidence and practice realities.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection s
Rich and Tim speak to Prof. Harry Ferguson: Feeling, moving & sensing through the history of child protection social work
In this episode, Rich and Tim sit down with Professor Harry Ferguson—one of the most influential thinkers in contemporary social work. Together, they explore the evolution of the profession, the emotional and embodied nature of frontline practice, and what we’ve learned from decades of child death enquiries. Harry reflects on the importance of relationships, the complexity of risk, and why social
Rich and Tim speak with parent activist Lee Crouch about his experience of losing his children & the journey toward reunification
Rich and Tim speak to Lee Crouch, a parent activist, about losing his children, the long road to recovery, and eventual reunification. Together, they explore how parents, social workers, and foster carers can collaborate more compassionately. Rich and Tim also reflect on their own experiences of shame — how it’s shaped their work and personal lives — and what it means for practice and healing.Conn
Rich and Tim; 'Headlines with Mithran' (CC editor) and personal reflections on parenting
Social Work England fee rise and increase in fitness to practise case numbershttps://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/07/24/social-work-england-presses-ahead-with-33-fee-rise-despite-huge-practitioner-opposition/https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/07/25/social-work-england-fee-hike-unjustifiable-and-based-on-tokenistic-consultation-warn-unison-and-basw/https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/07/29/psw-n
Rich and Tim on how writing sharpens thinking, strengthens practice and opens doors
In this conversation, Rich and Tim explore how writing isn’t just for blogs or books—it’s a powerful tool for social workers to think more clearly, practice more effectively, and create new opportunities. Drawing on their own experiences, they discuss how the simple act of putting words on a page sharpens reflection, deepens analysis, and helps communicate ideas with confidence. Whether you’re lo
Rich and Tim debate: help individuals or change the system?
In this episode of Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim debate (and disagree about): are social workers failing families by ignoring the system?It’s just the two of us this time, diving into one of the biggest tensions in the profession. Should we focus our energy on helping individual families build safety and stability? Or is that just papering over the cracks of a system that keeps producing harm?We
Rich and Tim chat with Dr. Lorna Stabler about what children think makes a great social worker, and explore the vital role of sibling and kinship carers
Dr Lorna Stabler's research can be found here.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.
BONUS: Chapter 1 of Messy Social Work read by Rich Devine
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich and Tim: 'headlines with Mithran' & Cordie Gwilym (Social Worker/Coach) on adoption, overcoming loss and coaching
Connect with Cordie here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cordie-gwilym/Mithran's CC articles: A guide to the reforms: https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/07/10/the-dfes-child-protection-and-family-support-reforms-explained/An interview with Eileen Munro, in which she voiced significant criticisms of the changes: https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/07/03/munro-childrens-social-care-reforms-very
Rich and Tim speak to Rasheed Pendry OBE (Director) on systemic practice and leadership
In this conversation, Rasheed Nicholas John Pendry shares his journey into social work, highlighting the transformative impact of systemic ideas and personal experiences on his professional practice. He discusses the importance of relationships in social work, the need for cultural change within organisations, and innovative practices in family therapy. Rashid also reflects on the complexities of
Rich and Tim discuss the 5 reasons why chronologies essential for effective social work practice
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich and Tim speak to Clarissa Stevens (Development Worker for Peer Power) on how to work with teenagers and gangs
In this episode of "Messy Social Work," hosts Rich Devine and Tim Fisher engage in a profound conversation with Clarissa Stevens, a seasoned youth worker and relational activist. Clarissa shares her journey from a challenging upbringing to becoming a pivotal figure in youth advocacy. She delves into the emotional landscape of teenagers, offering insights into how professionals can connec
Rich and Tim interview Kevin Campbell on Family Finding; an innovative method for finding family, love and connection
In this conversation, Kevin Campbell discusses the profound impact of family separation policies, particularly in the context of child welfare and legal action against the Trump administration. He emphasizes the importance of family connections, innovative approaches in child protection, and the role of social workers in supporting youth. The discussion also covers the significance of understandin
Rich and Tim introduce 'Headlines' with CC Editor Mithran Samuel and Review 'Radical Help' by Hilary Cottam
Mithran's articles: https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/06/12/4bn-a-year-more-available-for-adult-social-care-by-2028-29-in-spending-review/https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/06/12/spending-review-childrens-services-cash-boost-means-labour-delivering-on-care-review-macalister/ https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2025/06/17/casey-dfe-must-urgently-investigate-fall-in-number-of-child-sexual-abus
Rich and Tim interview Prof Jill Derrick on the impossible imperative; navigating competing principles in child protection
We’re joined by the brilliant Professor Jill Derrick from the University of California, Berkeley, for a compelling and thought-provoking conversation on the complexities of child protection practice.From the competing tensions social workers navigate to the moral distress they often face, Jill offers deep insight into the impossible decisions that define the field. We examine the moral implication
Rich and Tim speak to Senior Social Worker, Duane Phillips about being mixed heritage, male social worker, working with fathers and much more
In this episode with speak with Duane Phillips, Senior Social Worker at Coventry City Council. We talk about: Duane's experience growing up mixed heritage working with children, families and communityDuane's experience working as a family support worker and running groups for menBeing a male social workerAnd much more...We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did.Connect with Duane
Rich and Tim speak to Terri-Anne (Project Worker and Care Experienced) about requesting and reading her files
This week, we have our first-ever return guest, Terri Anne, who shares the important work of the Care Leavers Association and delves into her exploration of the emotional rollercoaster of retrieving and reading her care files. Tim interviews care leaver Liana Karim and Jo about their National Voice Project, and some stark findings from a massive study involving care-experienced adults. Liana reads
What 10 years in child protection taught me about people, pain and purpose
In this episode, Rich and Tim and live and in person in Rich's living - they unpack 10 lessons from Rich's experience in child protection, with Tim surprising Rich with a Paxman style interview, quizzing and questioning his central ideas. Do they withstand the scrutiny, tune in to find out.Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions:
Professor Clive Diaz on psychoanalytical ideas in contemporary social work
In this episode, we speak to Professor Clive Diaz, a music producer who has also worked as a social worker, principal social worker, researcher, professor, and psychoanalytical psychotherapist. We discuss the relevance of psychoanalytical ideas in modern social work, such as transference, countertransference, the unconscious, and much more. Can these ideas really help us as social workers, or shou
George Fielding BEM on living with cerebral palsy and how we can put the social back into social care
This week, we speak with George Fielding, BEM, a disability rights activist and social care leader. He was the first child in his area to go to a mainstream school in a wheelchair. Since then, he’s worked with charities like Whizz-Kidz, mentored over 100 disabled people, and received an MBE.George also set up two care organisations that focus on dignity, choice, and helping people live the lives t
Rich and Tim take on the top three myths in child protection work
In this episode of Messy Social Work, Tim Fisher and Rich Devine explore the complexities of child protection social work. They discuss the myths surrounding the profession, the importance of relationships, and the challenges social workers face in balancing their roles. Rich shares insights from his book, addressing misconceptions about the ability of social workers to keep children safe and happ
Rich and Tim introduce 'Messy Social Work' and discuss Rich's blog on reasons for not being a manager
In this episode of the newly named podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Rich's blog; 15 Years in Social Work – And 4 Reasons I am Still Not a Manager.Rich qualified as a social worker 15 years ago and has never held a management role. This has been a deliberate choice. He has remained working directly with children and families.There are four key reasons why Rich and Tim unpack.1. Relationships2. I
Professor Anna Gupta (Royal Holloway, University of London) on Poverty and intersectionality
In this episode, we interview Professor Anna Gupta about her early experiences as a social worker, her transition into academia, and her important work on poverty and intersectionality in the context of child protection. We explore:- The social model - intersectionality - The role of poverty in child abuse and neglect - The capabilities approachHere is the link to the powerful Archie Roach song ‘T
Rich and Tim on how to find meaning in life in the second half of life
In this episode of the Relational Activism in Social Work podcast, asides Tim's nice hair and the clay.... Tim Fisher FRSA and Richard Devine discuss the powerful insights from James Hollis' Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life. They explore the challenges of midlife, from the loss of purpose in previously fulfilling careers to the struggle between ego and soul. Rich shares his per
Jamie Spencer (London Borough of Camden) on Data, Community and Connection
In this episode, we interview Jamie Spencer, who holds the position of 'Head of Insight, Quality, Financial Services, and Digital for Camden Adult Social Care'. However, don't let that job title deter you from listening, as Jamie has had a fascinating journey through social care from support worker to senior leader and has been at the forefront of driving change at Camden Council.We
Professor Andrew Turnell (Australia) on Safety and belonging in child protection
In this episode, we speak to Professor Andrew Turnell, co-creator of Signs of Safety. In January 2023, he received the Member of the Order of Australia award for his sustained and innovative contributions to child protection social work. Andrew is internationally renowned for his ground-breaking work in developing safety-organized, solution-focused, and systemic approaches to statutory child prote
Jo Sutton (ISW and Director of Purple Elephant in the Room) on Assessment and how to change the system
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich shares his learning from a 5 day silent meditation retreat (Bonus episode)
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich, Tim and Parent Activist Kar-Man discuss how to heal from childhood trauma
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich and Tim discuss Child Protection vs. Family Support
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Martin Hampton (Adult social worker, Camden) on how to see the person not the problem
Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich and Tim on relationships in social work and 'Spongy boundaries'
Links: Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich and Tim answer, 'What is Relational Activism'
Links: Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Lee Weston, Care experienced and prison reform advocate on Care, Prison and Transformation
Opening Discussion: Teaching & Activism Conversation with Lee: Care Experience, Prison, and ActivismLee’s Background:Grew up in care, moving through 28+ placements. Entered the justice system at 17, receiving a 5-year sentenceLee talks about:The Impact of the Fellowship & RetreatReflects on the Justice System & Care ExperienceDescribes the cycle of placement breakdowns leading to furth
Charlotte Spires (Assessment social worker from BANES) on how to navigate conflict in social work
In this episode of the Relation Activism in Social Work podcast, hosts Tim Fisher and Rich Devine engage in a lively discussion that covers a range of topics from personal anecdotes about daily life to reflections on their university experiences and the challenges faced in direct work with children in social work. They also touch on upcoming professional events and introduce guest Charlotte Spires
Ian Thomas, Tedx Speaker, Care Experienced Social Worker on addiction
This episode explores the profound complexities of addiction, trauma, and recovery, featuring the deeply personal and inspiring journey of guest Ian Thomas, a social worker and speaker with lived experience of addiction and healing.In this conversation, we cover:Understanding Addiction and TraumaDrawing from Gabor Maté’s In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, the discussion highlights addiction as a respo
Vicki Shevlin from Social Work Sorted on Supporting newly qualified social workers
In this episode, Tim Fisher and Rich Devine kick off 2025 with reflections on personal and professional goals, recent events, and an inspiring conversation with guest Vicki Shevlin, creator of Social Work Sorted. The discussion explores social work practice, personal growth, and the profession’s challenges. Key Highlights: 1. Personal Reflections and Goals: •Rich emphasizes living
Rich and Tim on the courage to be disliked
Links:Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Becca Carr Hopkins (ISW and attachment expert) on attachment and the use of self in social work
In this episode, Tim Fisher and Rich Devine are joined by Becca Carr-Hopkins for a powerful conversation about use of self, attachment theory, and the transformative power of relationships in social work practice. Becca shares her journey into social work, insights on adapting to challenging environments, and how understanding attachment can unlock deeper connections with families. Rich reflects
Rich and Tim on how to create organisational and systemic change in social work
Links: Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programmeRich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/Rich Devine LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-devine-181763177/
Rich, Tim and Lee Crouch (parent with lived experience) on how to assess a parents capacity to change
The podcast focuses on two main themes: assessing capacity to change in social work and a parent’s personal journey through the child protection system. Part 1: Assessing Capacity to Change Rich Devine shares insights from his 14 years in social work, focusing on the challenges of evaluating a parent’s capacity to change within child protection contexts. 1. Challenges in Assessing
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